Hypergear Turbochargers and High flow Services Development thread

[hypergear]

I still recommend him wholeheartedly to others; unless they are using a Hypergear turbo...

A turbo is just a part that blows air into the engine. Wither its our turbo, Garrett turbo, or some random ebay crap it makes little difference in terms of tuning. If they can tune a Garrett probably then they should have no issues tuning ours.

We've built turbos for many clients in Aus and world wide, funny the only people whom had tuning related issues are in people WA.

When we design a turbo clients to suit certain goals, it’s based on both theory and evidence, So if the turbo it self works perfectly fine on other cars but not on a certain car I would think its more of the build of that certain car.

I do what I can to assist my customers based on the information provided, If I can not figure it out then my solution would be building a turbo, tune it and exchange the "suspected" turbo with solid evidence and tuning data, and the turbo can be ruled out. So I'm pretty keen to swap lillcrash with the ATR43G3 off my test car and if that don't fix the problem then its definitly a car issue and I won't be able to do much more unless I can keep the car for few month. (send it in with few sets of tyres )

[lilcrash]

+1 hypergear has always tried to solve my problems. I would just like to be sure it's not a car issue before I swap the turbo over. One random thing I have noticed is I think part of my old turbos front wheel is in my intercooler. I can hear it rattling.

[wolverine]

I think part of my old turbos front wheel is in my intercooler. I can hear it rattling.

I might pay to attend to that sooner rather than later.

[lilcrash]

I only noticed it at lunch when I was poking things. Il get it out at home when it cools down

[Hanaldo]

A turbo is just a part that blows air into the engine. Wither its our turbo, Garrett turbo, or some random ebay crap it makes little difference in terms of tuning. If they can tune a Garrett probably then they should have no issues tuning ours.

We've built turbos for many clients in Aus and world wide, funny the only people whom had tuning related issues are in people WA.

When we design a turbo clients to suit certain goals, it's based on both theory and evidence, So if the turbo it self works perfectly fine on other cars but not on a certain car I would think its more of the build of that certain car.

I do what I can to assist my customers based on the information provided, If I can not figure it out then my solution would be building a turbo, tune it and exchange the "suspected" turbo with solid evidence and tuning data, and the turbo can be ruled out. So I'm pretty keen to swap lillcrash with the ATR43G3 off my test car and if that don't fix the problem then its definitly a car issue and I won't be able to do much more unless I can keep the car for few month. (send it in with few sets of tyres )

Of course, I wasn't saying it would be the turbo itself that is causing any problems. My comment was in relation to my previous tuners reluctance for me (or any of his customers for that matter) to use your turbos, he just doesn't believe they work, in fact he cringes when you tell him that's what turbo you're using. The reason behind that I don't know, but I've heard from a few people now who have gone to him with your turbos and either had issues or had him tell them to ditch it. So it wouldn't make sense for me to tell people to go to him if they want to use a Hypergear turbo.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Hanaldo

[Tangles]

Return flow intercooler, hmmmmm.....

Had an apexi return flow unit myself, swapped out for a Trust 'normal' style intercooler and with a basic dynotune netted an easy 20rwkw increase using components very similar to your setup. Used to get boost drop, but not the same extreme as yourself (then again was only pushing 16psi, 1psi spike then dropping down to 14psi). Was fine with this setup for 200rwkw, which was maxing out the then-used turbo (sliding performance highflow) on stock 370cc injectors.

Moved to 450cc S15 injectors, different piggyback ecu & a GT30-based highflow and saw 250rwkw with 18psi, slight spike and then some boost drop as far as I can recall. In fact Im sure every tune Ive had has experienced some sort of boost drop. From 140kw, to 160kw, to 180kw, to 190kw, to 210kw, to 225kw, to 235kw, to 250kw.... Just looked at my graphs and all have experienced a "nosing-over" up late-mid to high in the rev range.

I wouldnt trust a return flow intercooler to push more than a maximum of 220rwkw for the RB25det engine. Thats close to around your current 300rwhp, and is only my gut feel based on my own experiences. If you already have a HD turbo actuator on the hypergear turbo then I guess you should perhaps look at other areas of your setup.

Have you had a test done to calculate the pressure drop between the inlet/outlet of your current return-flow intercooler?

Instead of making a cooler up yourself Lilcrash, perhaps purchase an intercooler that will bolt up correctly for your setup?

ie $400 no-name 'cooling pro' r34 rb25 unit should be fine for 250rwkw: - http://www.justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=16909&cat=&page=1

but then again Ive never used this brand before so I cant be assured in saying that this would fix your problems.

[lilcrash]

i had a cooling pro in the celica, never had any issues, only running 14psi/200hp though. afaik the jjr return flow i have now is a cooling pro item also

[Harey]

Yeah I know what your saying Tangles, the return flow intercooler seems to drop 10-20rwkw on the setups I have seen. I have had a trust return flow intercooler, then I spent a few bucks on a return flow ARC intercooler. Found it more responsive and Trent said the temps are really good and dont move after continuous dyno runs but it still makes 20rwkw less than the exact same turbo on Staos car with a non return flow intercooler. This power difference was consistent with 2 different turbos that both Stao and I ran.

Even the cheaper non return flow intercoolers seem to do quite well from a boost dropping and peak power point of view.

Its such a pity cause I have a big focus on having it look standard for the popo

[GTScotT]

ARC lost 20kw to Stao's car which runs a china core.

I think that goes to say that return flow isnt the way.

[Room42]

I wouldn't rule out the tuner, it is all about the tune after all. In my case, I spent hundreds of dollars replacing parts and fixing non-existent issues, chasing a problem that turned out to be my tuner. And I still wouldn't bad mouth him, he is easily one of the top 3 tuners in WA and is supposed to be the bees knees with NIStune, but for whatever reason he just couldn't do my car properly. I still recommend him wholeheartedly to others; unless they are using a Hypergear turbo...

Man you contradict yourself there. Tuning is tuning. If he couldn't tune your car and someone else could then that says it all right there. If I wasted hundreds of dollars chasing non existent issues and it turned out to be the tune then I can guarantee that I would be getting my money back from him for the tune that failed. As far as not bad mouthing him, you already did. He definitely isn't in the top 3 tuners in WA. I tuned my car to 246 rwhp on the stock turbo and the dyno only got 7rwhp more. How short was yours again? And the bloke was using a dyno the whole time.

Of course, I wasn't saying it would be the turbo itself that is causing any problems. My comment was in relation to my previous tuners reluctance for me (or any of his customers for that matter) to use your turbos, he just doesn't believe they work, in fact he cringes when you tell him that's what turbo you're using. The reason behind that I don't know, but I've heard from a few people now who have gone to him with your turbos and either had issues or had him tell them to ditch it. So it wouldn't make sense for me to tell people to go to him if they want to use a Hypergear turbo.

Your turbo clearly does work though doesn't it. Your latest tuner got your car sorted. Your previous tuner is advising people to ditch their $1500 turbo because he can't tune it. Hypergear has been proven time and time again yet your previous tuner disregards this. I am inferring from your post that he is giving bad advice to naive people due to his lack of tuning ability.

Here is the 1million dollar question. Why would you still refer people to him, given your bad experience?

[Hanaldo]

Man you contradict yourself there. Tuning is tuning. If he couldn't tune your car and someone else could then that says it all right there. If I wasted hundreds of dollars chasing non existent issues and it turned out to be the tune then I can guarantee that I would be getting my money back from him for the tune that failed. As far as not bad mouthing him, you already did. He definitely isn't in the top 3 tuners in WA. I tuned my car to 246 rwhp on the stock turbo and the dyno only got 7rwhp more. How short was yours again? And the bloke was using a dyno the whole time.

Your turbo clearly does work though doesn't it. Your latest tuner got your car sorted. Your previous tuner is advising people to ditch their $1500 turbo because he can't tune it. Hypergear has been proven time and time again yet your previous tuner disregards this. I am inferring from your post that he is giving bad advice to naive people due to his lack of tuning ability.

Here is the 1million dollar question. Why would you still refer people to him, given your bad experience?

Because he is a good tuner. People have bad experiences with workshops all the time, it doesn't mean that workshop is rubbish. There's a lot of very happy customers coming out of Hyperdrive. Andy gave up a lot of his time to help me, even giving me free dyno time and retunes on occasion, which is money out of his pocket because he had to rent the dyno.

I won't bad mouth him because I don't know the circumstances that led to him not being able to tune my car properly, too much changed when I changed workshop. For starters, Andy did not have his own dyno at the time. So it could have been an issue with him having to use someone elses dyno (possibly because Ovaboosts dyno doesn't or didn't log boost), or the car wasn't being strapped down properly. Even Mick Munro and Glenn Campbell had a look at it and didn't find anything 'off'. The work these guys do is incredible, I don't hold it against them that they didn't get my car performing the way I expected. There's just way too many variables to say definitively that it was his fault.

[kwickr33]

Here is the 1million dollar question. Why would you still refer people to him, given your bad experience?

^^^

Exactly right. If I wasted that much of money and time on a shit tune then I would never go back to that tuner or recommend him to any one. Regardless how nice this guys is, it is still my money going to his pocket without me getting what I paid for.

Plus I can't really see how turbo brands affect tuners work. I had stocky, ebay T3/T4, Garrett 3071, Hypergear ATR45 and now ATR43SS-2 on my car been through 3 different tuners, neither of them had brand related tunning issues.

How ever experienced tuners can pin point and rectify a problems when it occurs, which others might not be able to.

Any way, my current SS-2 made super responsive 307rwkws on 20psi my dynosheet is at the rb25det dyno section.

Edited October 19, 2011 by kwickr33

[LANDSCRIBBLE]

who else in perth has an internal wastegated hypergear turbo for their rb25? and who dyno tuned it for you?

[hypergear]

I think the Best way is buy the $1100 Adaptronic ECU from us, Give me the size of your injectors and I can upload in a tune using the same turbocharger from my test car. That should plug and play. Do a $100 dyno run and make sure every thing's good before hard trashing.

By doing that you've already saved your self $1000 from dyno tuning. Sale your PFC with Z32 AFM or what ever system if its been previously purchased. And we should be 100%.

[Cowboy1600]

Any tuner who just whacks a car on a dyno and "tunes" it while ignoring obvious and/or potential issues isn't worth a pinch of shit.

Seriously, saying it's ok for a tuner to just "tune" whatever is thrown at him is stupid. Anyone who's been doing it for a while should know what to expect and if a car doesn't achieve near what it should, then I would expect he consults with the owner to try and find the issue.

Just tuning a car and throwing it back to the customer even if it's not right is bullshit.

lilcrash obviously has an issue somewhere and it sounds as though the tuner isn't the slightest bit interested in helping him find it. He sounds happy to take his money though. Of course we've only heard one side of the story so I will reserve final judgement.

But my point stands. Any service provider who reckons they can exist in today's economic climate by being half-arsed is fooling themselves. And tuning someones car when there is clearly something stopping it reaching it's full potential but carrying on regardless is being half-arsed.

Oh and that stuff about not wanting to tune a specific turbo is utter bullshit. A turbo is just a pump. I'd be wary of any tuner not wanting to tune a particular brand, especially one which is well proven.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Cowboy1600

[zebra]

I agree there, but if the tuner doesn't know what to expect, and is just told tune my car to make as much power as it can.;

If the car isnt missing/fartig/eaning out etc, then there isnt an issue in the tuners eyes.

We dont know the full story as you say.

But if I were tuning it (im not a tuner btw) and the car had consistent boost drop on every run on the rollers, than I would assume that's just how it is. I would ring however and say boost is dropping off is that normal, but its not like the car would hold boost for one run, drop off the next and then spike all over the place on the run after.

If it was doing that then all "good" tuners would shut it down, ring the bloke and say its not tunable.

Many cars drop boost in the top end, my Soarer does due to the Standard dump/front pipe being hugely restrictive

Aaron, half assed work is what keeps some of these less professional guys in business, because they dont have the skills to do everything 100% and quickly, so they have a near enough is good enough attitude which sucks

[GTScotT]

When I was younger I also got stung by a mechanic who may have been trying to do the ring thing, I dropped the car off to change one small thing and they wouldnt give it back unless they changed all this other crap to make it 'safe to drive'.

For a while after if I had to use a mechanic I would take it to them and specifically tell them not to touch anything and just to do XYZ. It got me some of the undesirable results as mentioned above.

I then realised there was no middle point, you either take the car there ready to do what u need them to do or you let them do it and charge a packet.

The difference between then and now for me is I made it my mission to have the car ready so that it would not cause an issue once there. Have been fine ever since.

[Hanaldo]

^^^

Exactly right. If I wasted that much of money and time on a shit tune then I would never go back to that tuner or recommend him to any one. Regardless how nice this guys is, it is still my money going to his pocket without me getting what I paid for.

Plus I can't really see how turbo brands affect tuners work. I had stocky, ebay T3/T4, Garrett 3071, Hypergear ATR45 and now ATR43SS-2 on my car been through 3 different tuners, neither of them had brand related tunning issues.

How ever experienced tuners can pin point and rectify a problems when it occurs, which others might not be able to.

Any way, my current SS-2 made super responsive 307rwkws on 20psi my dynosheet is at the rb25det dyno section.

Any tuner who just whacks a car on a dyno and "tunes" it while ignoring obvious and/or potential issues isn't worth a pinch of shit.

Seriously, saying it's ok for a tuner to just "tune" whatever is thrown at him is stupid. Anyone who's been doing it for a while should know what to expect and if a car doesn't achieve near what it should, then I would expect he consults with the owner to try and find the issue.

Just tuning a car and throwing it back to the customer even if it's not right is bullshit.

lilcrash obviously has an issue somewhere and it sounds as though the tuner isn't the slightest bit interested in helping him find it. He sounds happy to take his money though. Of course we've only heard one side of the story so I will reserve final judgement.

But my point stands. Any service provider who reckons they can exist in today's economic climate by being half-arsed is fooling themselves. And tuning someones car when there is clearly something stopping it reaching it's full potential but carrying on regardless is being half-arsed.

Oh and that stuff about not wanting to tune a specific turbo is utter bullshit. A turbo is just a pump. I'd be wary of any tuner not wanting to tune a particular brand, especially one which is well proven.

I think you've both misinterpreted what I said. The tuning issue was not brand related in the essence that the turbo was making it difficult to tune. The issue was that I've handed my tuner a turbo he has never heard of before apart from previous customers, and I've told him what I want from it. I could make a turbo in my backyard from stuff I found in my bin and tell you that it should make 1500hp, would you believe me and throw it on a customers car with no reservations?

You need to understand that these guys get asked to tune a lot of cars. Some of them are really well built and don't give any problems, whereas some are cheaply thrown together with no regard for reliability. Then the tuner goes and puts it on his dyno having no idea what to expect from it, and something goes wrong. Who do you think the owner blames? A tuner has every right to be wary of tuning products they haven't heard of, and believe me, Hypergear is not well known over here. If you're not on these forums, it's very unlikely you've seen these results. Not too mention all the tuners here are wary of results coming from over east; every tuner I have spoken to in Perth has told me to be skeptical when looking at results from over there.

I agree there, but if the tuner doesn't know what to expect, and is just told tune my car to make as much power as it can.;

If the car isnt missing/fartig/eaning out etc, then there isnt an issue in the tuners eyes.

Exactly this.

My car ran perfectly. There were no symptoms of anything being wrong; it didn't misfire, it didn't knock (until he wound a lot more boost into it), timing was good, AFR's were good, VCT was working, etc. etc. it was mechanically sound. So there was no reason to stop tuning it, there was no reason to suspect anything was wrong with it. The only issue was me telling him I wanted more power from it. Now you can say he should go online and look up some Hypergear results, but really that's not very realistic to expect someone to do that. The fact is, I've handed him a turbo that he does not know the potential of, basing my expectations on what I have been told by the seller of the turbo. We on here know all about Hypergear and Stao and his work, so I was confident in everything. But look at it from the tuners point of view and it's really not hard to see why he would be skeptical.

And to say he was half-arsed about it is unfair as well. He did put a lot of time into chasing my supposedly missing power, at his expense. I don't know what was stopping it making the power, there's so many possibilities it's difficult to impossible to say. For whatever reason, the car made the power at the new workshop and I'm happy with that. I see no reason to bag out my previous tuner given the circumstances. At the end of the day, he could have wound in more boost with more timing to achieve my power target and given me back a car that detonated it's head off the first time I drove it.

With regards to lilcrash's issues, his scenario looks to be different from mine. In his case, he is experiencing pretty major boost drop, which seems to indicate that there is a problem. There were no such symptoms with my car, mine just simply didn't perform as expected.

[lilcrash]

I didn't suspect any issues when I dropped my car off at Efi. I had given myself a 3500rpm limit, so I never saw the boost drop. What is everyone's thoughts on a temporary top mount intercooler running without a bonnet for testing purposes? Would give minimal pipe length. Is it mainly the u turn at one end that kills the return flow setup, too slow to turn around?? On a pressure standard if the core is restrictive then it doesn't matter how many bends you have it will still loose pressure across the core. How many people have fitted an r34 intercooler kit, how much cutting involved? Did it fit?

[Rolls]

Just get a tried and proven FMIC that others have used, otherwise you are introducing an unknown which might make the issue even worse. It isn't just about restriction, it obviously needs to effectively cool the air as well.