MAGIC Cat vs NEW CATCO Cat

[BATMBL]

hi guys

i have noticed a few threads regarding this 'magic cat'. first off, the main reason everyone knows about it is because it was shown in Zoom. Now im going to let in on some important inforamtion that Zoom left out (because they werent told) and what the Magic cat manufacturer doesnt want you to know...(also, many of the numbers regarding the fines etc in the article are wrong or mixed up...which is not Zooms fault but Magic's fault for not providing correct information).

The stainless steel 'biscuits' used in these Magic CATs dont have ANY COATING on them. For those that dont know what im talking about, in simple terms, you are paying for a metal mesh and a pipe, not a CAT.

to actually pass any emissions tests, the steel biscuit needs to be coated with the right materials so when the exhaust gas flows through it, they 'get rid off' the majority of the hazardous gases and you get a good reading on the meter and the EPA is happy.

how do i know this about Magic's cats? well, first of all, Magic use the same biscuits as CATCO in their NEW cat, so CATCO knows the inside info and has passed it on to me.

However the MAJOR difference is that CATCO gets these same biscuits coated (extra $$$). you will notice that there are no numbers on the magic cats biscuits. there is a number (cant think of it at the top of my head) which is supposed to be 'stamped' on the stainless steel biscuit to indicate the coating performed on the biscuit.

if you are pesimistic about my thread, then ask Magic for the certification papers to verfy that the cats he is selling pass emissions...the short answer from him may be 'i dont have them' if he is feeling honest, or the long answer will be, i have them somewhere here..blabla..i'll fax them to you..and then a few months later, still no documents...or who told you this?

why? because i know for a fact he doesnt have them.

the NEW CATCO cat has these same biscuits, but are actually coated to pass emissions.the body on the CATCO cat is 5" not 4" like the Magic cat, so expect even better flow.

therefore, if you want to buy a pipe with a metal mesh inside for $200 or so, then throw your money and buy a Magic 'cat' and when you get EPA tested ,EXPECT to FAIL. ((personally id rather buy a stainless steel racing pipe for around $100, as you'll get the same reading at the EPA but more flow than the magic cat! lol))

CATCO is a catalytic converter manufacturer, Magic isnt, they just buy the cats off a catalytic converter manufacturer, after stating their specifications and then 'stamp' their company logo on the final product. i know the price is double on the CATCO cats then these Magic 'cats' with the current magic cat group buy, but afterall you are paying for the best, highest flowing quality CAT, not an overpriced pipe with a steel mesh. also the CATCO cats come with bolt on 3" piping.

I know this may look like a 'my product is better' thread and 'buy from me', but those of you that actually care about wnat your hard earned money is spent on (and the environment), you will find this to be very useful information, which can only come from the inside.

If people want a group buy organised, then let me know and i'll work out the best possible price for you guys.

f.y.i. there was recent dyno testing done on this new cat, and the stock r32 gtst made an extra 10kwrw with just the cat changed to this one from the standard nissan cat! as cars run even more hp from standard, expect even more kwrw increase over the standard cat!

well ..that is all,

Michael

[SKYL9]

im using 1 of your CATCO cats and was surprised when i actually passed the epa test at mc leod just a few weeks ago.. for the price i rekon you couldnt go wrong.. very happy with your product and would buy again

[grandmasterb]

get a GB going then mate as from reading that you will have a few people interesting i'd say. Im one to start you off :Pimp2:

[Bobjones]

I was actually wondering how the majic cat worked...it just looked like mesh...and now I know...

Was going to get a catco when money came up...and now I definitely will

[BATMBL]

thanks skyl9

grandmasterb,

yes i will be talking with CATCO and ask them for a group buy price. im assuming if we can get 10 ppl, then it will drop nicely. thanks for being first in line

bobjones,

well the mesh is fine, as the catco cat uses the exact same stainless steel mesh in its new cat, BUT its mesh with coatings on it specifically made to decrease the pollutant levels, and therefore your emissions will pass within the criteria set out by the epa. this coating is the main part of the cat, and what makes it a cat, not the body or the bare mesh itself.

the mesh plays the part in flow, but doesnt burn the pollutants out, unless it has a coating with the right materials over it.

cheers

[sewid]

On top of that, Michael's cats are flanged and bolt on ready to go. To be fair this would add at least $50+ to the price of a magic cat if you couldn't flange and install that one yourself.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Michael, I am not dissagreeing with what you are claiming, however I have 2 issues;

1. We were doing some testing on cats for circuit racing as there was some talk of the regs being introduced here, same as they are in some catagories in Europe. We were sent a number of cats that are used overseas, maga buck costs, over $2K in some cases and Magic sent us one of theirs. In the bang for buck stakes it was easily the best. I tried in on a couple of cars, up to 300 rwkw and it showed very little, if any, difference to a straight through 3" pipe.

I should point out that no part of our testing was for emissions, we rely on the manufacturer for that as the required testing is both extensive and expensive.

2. If I have interpreted correctly what you have written, Magic are selling a cylinder with metal mesh in it as cat, but it is in fact not a catalytic converter. ie; it does not perform its primary task of reducing emissions. If that is in fact the case, then they are engaging in deceptive trade practises.

If I was a competitor of Magic I would be reporting this to the Trade Practices Commission. The TPC is part of the Attorney General's Department, contact details;

Attorney-General's Department

Central Office

Robert Garran Offices

National Circuit

BARTON ACT 2600

Tel: (02) 6250 6666

If I could substantiate the claims, then the produict would most likely be ordered for withdrawal from sale immediatley and any money paid by customers for the product would be refunded. This is not unprecedentated in Australia, the 1350 kg alloy trolley jacks being a recent example (they only held 850 kgs).

If I have a receipt from Magic for a "catalytic converter" then there is no way I can be guilty of anything. EPA testing or not, I can't be expected to test something with equipment that I don't have, using knoweldge that I don't posess. There is not a court in the land that would not agree.

I am sure we have not heard the last of this:cheers:

[someonestolecc]

For those of you who haven't dealt with BATMBL I've been dealing with him for HID kits and he's good to deal with so when I need cats etc I'm getting them from him.

[lwells]

Sydneykid: Did any of your testing including emissions (rather than just performance)?

Cheers,

Lucien.

[grandmasterb]

Sydneykid:  Did any of your testing including emissions (rather than just performance)?

Cheers,

Lucien.

One step ahead of me there lwells. Wondering the same thing myself?

[Sydneykid]

Sydneykid:  Did any of your testing including emissions (rather than just performance)?

Cheers,

Lucien.

Too quick Lucien, I had to stop posting while I torqued down a cylinder head. That done, I have now completed the post above.

But there is more................

[Angry]

thanks for the info michael.

ive asked about that same question b4... if they are certified..and no one could really answer the question.. basically coz they didnt know... all they posted was results and props about the product.

im using 1 of your CATCO cats and was surprised when i actually passed the epa test at mc leod just a few weeks ago.. for the price i rekon you couldnt go wrong.. very happy with your product and would buy again

[Ronin 09]

Basically:

Let’s look at the premise behind a catalytic converter. It's job is to assist chemical conversion of poisonous waste gases (CO, hydrocarbons) to more friendly (though still ruining the atmosphere) CO2 and water vapour. The catalyst, as the name implies, does not change in composition, nor will it be consumed, during the process - it is merely there to aid transformation without state change itself. The catalyst needs to reach a certain temperature before it will work properly, hence there is a certain amount of 'flow blockage' that must exist whereby the exhaust flows across the catalyst, for the exhaust gases to heat it up enough - so it's no good to coat the inside of a 3" pipe with catalyst and hope it will work.

Therefore, the stainless mesh, or ceramic, or whatever material you use to flow the exhaust across, will determine the flow capabilities of the catalytic converter - not the catalyst itself. It is my understanding that the stainless mesh is less restrictive than the ceramic monoliths used previously.

What BATMBL is saying, is that MAGIC cats do not have a coating on the mesh. This would mean that the "cat" is little more than a pipe with some steel wool in it.

To be a true catalytic converter, the substrate, be it stainless mesh, or ceramic, needs to have the catalyst bonded to it to work.

[Sydneykid]

Most people know that I very rarely accept anything at face value, I like to test out the voracity of the information provided. So lets look at what a cat is, what it does and how it does it, courtesy of one of my favourite website http://auto.howstuffworks.com;

How Catalytic Converters Reduce Pollution

Most modern cars are equipped with three-way catalytic converters. "Three-way" refers to the three regulated emissions it helps to reduce -- carbon monoxide, VOCs and NOx molecules. The converter uses two different types of catalysts, a reduction catalyst and an oxidation catalyst. Both types consist of a ceramic structure coated with a metal catalyst, usually platinum, rhodium and/or palladium. The idea is to create a structure that exposes the maximum surface area of catalyst to the exhaust stream, while also minimizing the amount of catalyst required (they are very expensive).

A three-way catalytic converter: Note the two separate catalysts.

There are two main types of structures used in catalytic converters -- honeycomb and ceramic beads. Most cars today use a honeycomb structure.

Ceramic honeycomb catalyst structure

The Reduction Catalyst

The reduction catalyst is the first stage of the catalytic converter. It uses platinum and rhodium to help reduce the NOx emissions. When an NO or NO2 molecule contacts the catalyst, the catalyst rips the nitrogen atom out of the molecule and holds on to it, freeing the oxygen in the form of O2. The nitrogen atoms bond with other nitrogen atoms that are also stuck to the catalyst, forming N2. For example:

2NO => N2 + O2 or 2NO2 => N2 + 2O2

The Oxidization Catalyst

The oxidation catalyst is the second stage of the catalytic converter. It reduces the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by burning (oxidizing) them over a platinum and palladium catalyst. This catalyst aids the reaction of the CO and hydrocarbons with the remaining oxygen in the exhaust gas. For example:

2CO + O2 => 2CO2

But where did this oxygen come from?

The Control System

The third stage is a control system that monitors the exhaust stream, and uses this information to control the fuel injection system. There is an oxygen sensor mounted upstream of the catalytic converter, meaning it is closer to the engine than the converter is. This sensor tells the engine computer how much oxygen is in the exhaust. The engine computer can increase or decrease the amount of oxygen in the exhaust by adjusting the air-to-fuel ratio. This control scheme allows the engine computer to make sure that the engine is running at close to the stoichiometric point, and also to make sure that there is enough oxygen in the exhaust to allow the oxidization catalyst to burn the unburned hydrocarbons and CO.

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Having covered the theory, I now need to understand what this means;

The stainless steel 'biscuits' used in these Magic CATs dont have ANY COATING on them

I think it says that Magic cats don't have any platinum, rhodium and/or palladium coating on the ceramic honeycomb , or have I missed something?:confused:

[lwells]

I think it says that Magic cats don't have any platinum, rhodium and/or palladium coating on the ceramic honeycomb , or have I missed something?:confused:

That's certainly my understanding of the BATMBL's assertions.

I also agree with you that if Magic is selling "catalytic converters" to the public which don't meet the necessary environmental guidelines, they should (and would) be forced to withdraw the product from the market. As a consumer, I think I have every right to believe that when I purchase a "catalytic converter" that it will be appropriate for the prevailing legal requirements given that I have no way to verify its (environmental) performance.

Has anyone thought to contact Magic themselves and verify these details? I would, but I don't have time today (sadly I am not torquing down engine heads, but writting essays ).

Lucien.

[Ronin 09]

As an aside - the reason that 'real' cats are so expensive (maybe why MAGIC is a fair bit cheaper) is that platinum, rhodium and/or palladium are damn expensive

[Beer Baron]

also the reason scrappies love picking up old cats

[lwells]

As an aside - the reason that 'real' cats are so expensive (maybe why MAGIC is a fair bit cheaper) is that platinum, rhodium and/or palladium are damn expensive

Magic are not that cheap: don't forget they started off at about $700, fell to $500, and have only recently become $300. I imagine a fair whack of that is to do with growing market acceptance, new competition, and the costs of R&D having been recovered.

Lucien.

[Shaun]

Thanks for the in depth info Sydneykid. All the science aside, i still dont understand how magic cat can sell a product that is claimed to reduce noxious emissions, when it doesnt (if what batmbl is suggesting is factual). Surely competitors would know this and be on their arse straight away. As stated above, these are fraudulant trade practices, attracting harsh penalties. Im not convinced that a business would be so (cant think of a word) stupid? blatant in trickery? i dunno; im sure you know what i mean.

[Sydneykid]

As an aside - the reason that 'real' cats are so expensive (maybe why MAGIC is a fair bit cheaper) is that platinum, rhodium and/or palladium are damn expensive

I really don't think price is the issue here. A replacement cat (US certified) for a Toyota Supra costs under $US100 ($A130), that's with the gaskets. It's not a hi flow but a straight replacement for the standard cat. However it most certainly has all of the necessary catalysts in it.