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24 Apr 2006, 10:47 AM
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#1
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![]() RB31DET ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,111 Joined: 31st January, 2003 From: Sydney Car(s): R32GTST R33GTST Stagea Trader Rating : 49 |
For some time lot's of guys have been asking me to explain the differences between a good shock and a bad one, what sophisticated valving really means, why a monotube shock is better than a twin tube etc etc. So this thread is an attempt to answer those questions and any others that might come up in the process.
To kick it off I thought I would start with why a monotube shock is better than a twin tube. Monotube shocks have a larger piston area than a twin tube for the same given outside diameter. This larger piston OD/monotube design means that; 1. There is room for more valves 2. The valves themselves can be bigger 3. More hydraulic fluid is moved for the same stroke, this means superior metering of the fluid transfer though the piston. 4. There is more fluid in the shock, which means higher temperature capacity. The movement of the fluid through the valves generates heat (Newtons law at work) by transforming the kinetic (up and down) energy. 5. The fluid is in direct contact with the shock body meaning rapid transfer of heat to the outside )ambient) atmosphere. Following is a shock dyno graph (courtesy of Bilstein) showing the effect of heat on dampening of a typical Japanese twin tube shock. As you can see after 2 minutes, yes that's 2 minutes, of running at 550 mm/sec the damping force (the vertical axis) drops off dramatically. For those that haven't seen a shock dyno graph before the vertical axis is the damping force and the horizontal axis is the speed (frequency) of the up and down. ![]() This means is the damping efficiency of shock drops away due to the rapid overheating of the fluid. Because of the twin tube design there is insufficient fluid to absorb the heat and the two tubes slow down the heat transfer to outside atmosphere. What you feel in real life is a gradual decrease in damping effect, the shock slowly ceases to control the spring and the chassis. You get move vertical/roll movement, the shock no longer helps to keep the tyre in contact with the road. Hope that was in some way informative, the next subject (with pictures) will be a comparison of the design of the shock piston and the valve pack. -------------------- I don't own or work for a workshop and I don't know everything.
Wanted standard front and rear strut tops for R32/33/34 Skylines and Stageas plus 200SX S15 & S14 Group Buys on for Road & Track Kits (Whiteline, Eibach & Bilstein) for R32GTST, R32GTR, R32GTS4, R33GTST, R33GTR, R33GTS4, R34GTT, R34GTR and Stagea, plus Road and Track Kits for 200SX, S15 & S14 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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24 Apr 2006, 10:47 AM
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24 Apr 2006, 11:27 AM
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#3
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![]() CA31 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 4,346 Joined: 1st July, 2003 From: Brisbane Car(s): 88 Cefiro & 08 Jetta Trader Rating : 1 |
This NEEDS to be sticked!
-------------------- Four Doors For Life!
Sedans for Style! '08 VW Jetta 2.0 TSI '88 Nissan Cefiro Factory manual turbo, FOR SALE, $14k, RB25 Gearbox, SK suspension, many other mods, PM me if you want it. Its gotta go! |
24 Apr 2006, 07:59 PM
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#4
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that's racing! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 18,982 Joined: 10th May, 2002 From: Sydney Car(s): bnr32,z33,wgnc34,ungd21 Trader Rating : 19 |
it has been stickied
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24 Apr 2006, 08:10 PM
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#5
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![]() AX53B70 タービンの ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 1,441 Joined: 4th June, 2004 Car(s): RB30DET R33 Trader Rating : 15 |
I hope this isnt a stupid question, but where do gas struts come into the equation?
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25 Apr 2006, 09:32 AM
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#6
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![]() RB31DET ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,111 Joined: 31st January, 2003 From: Sydney Car(s): R32GTST R33GTST Stagea Trader Rating : 49 |
I hope this isnt a stupid question, but where do gas struts come into the equation? Gas (nitrogen) under pressure (45 psi or so) is used to reduce the foaming of the hydraulic fluid as it passes through the valves. Air bubbles are bad for damping consistency as they whip through the valves much easier/faster than the fluid and so give zero damping. Most shocks these days are gas pressure, pretty much only the vintage shocks are not. -------------------- I don't own or work for a workshop and I don't know everything.
Wanted standard front and rear strut tops for R32/33/34 Skylines and Stageas plus 200SX S15 & S14 Group Buys on for Road & Track Kits (Whiteline, Eibach & Bilstein) for R32GTST, R32GTR, R32GTS4, R33GTST, R33GTR, R33GTS4, R34GTT, R34GTR and Stagea, plus Road and Track Kits for 200SX, S15 & S14 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
25 Apr 2006, 09:39 AM
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#7
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![]() RB31DET ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,111 Joined: 31st January, 2003 From: Sydney Car(s): R32GTST R33GTST Stagea Trader Rating : 49 |
Great stuff SK! Now, how can you tell whether a shock is mono or twin tube? Would you happen to have a list of commonly used euro and jap performance shocks and whether they are mono or twin tube? It's not easy to tell the difference some times, the best way is to look at the specifications of the shock. If it doesn't say "monotube" then chances are it's a twin tube. The other way is to look at the shock body, if it has a step in the outside diameter (usually towards the bottom) then it's a twin tube. PS; the object of this thread is to educate, so the readers know why one shock costs $100 and another costs $500, even though they look basically the same. I am trying not to mention brand names or say "this shock" is always better than "that shock". -------------------- I don't own or work for a workshop and I don't know everything.
Wanted standard front and rear strut tops for R32/33/34 Skylines and Stageas plus 200SX S15 & S14 Group Buys on for Road & Track Kits (Whiteline, Eibach & Bilstein) for R32GTST, R32GTR, R32GTS4, R33GTST, R33GTR, R33GTS4, R34GTT, R34GTR and Stagea, plus Road and Track Kits for 200SX, S15 & S14 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
26 Apr 2006, 07:25 PM
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#8
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anthony ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 105 Joined: 7th September, 2004 From: sydney Car(s): r32 gtst Real Name: anthony Trader Rating : 0 |
im geting new shocks 4 my r32 gtst what brands are good just heavy duty shocks not coil overs?
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3 May 2006, 03:34 PM
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#9
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![]() RB31DET ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,111 Joined: 31st January, 2003 From: Sydney Car(s): R32GTST R33GTST Stagea Trader Rating : 49 |
Following are pictures of some twin tube shocks, the first is a standard GTR front shock. Below the spring seat you can see the step up in diameter, showing where the ouside chamber is located for the oil displaced by the shock shaft.
![]() The second picture is of a standard R33GTST front shock. As you can see it has the same step down below the spring seat. Plus it has another step down, just above the mounting eye, after the full travel of the piston. This is used commonly to give the shock more length (raise the ride height) without increasing the shock travel. ![]() The third picture is of a generic Japanese shock commonly used in a coil over kit. As you can see it also has the step down in diameter just above the mounting eye. This indicates that, depite being adjustable, it is still a twin tube shock. ![]() Hopefully this will help you in identifying a twin tube shock from a monotube. Unfortunately some shock manufacturers don't make it this obvious. The next best way is to look at the specifications of the shock. If it doesn't say "monotube" then chances are it's a twin tube. -------------------- I don't own or work for a workshop and I don't know everything.
Wanted standard front and rear strut tops for R32/33/34 Skylines and Stageas plus 200SX S15 & S14 Group Buys on for Road & Track Kits (Whiteline, Eibach & Bilstein) for R32GTST, R32GTR, R32GTS4, R33GTST, R33GTR, R33GTS4, R34GTT, R34GTR and Stagea, plus Road and Track Kits for 200SX, S15 & S14 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
3 May 2006, 04:11 PM
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#10
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![]() RB31DET ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,111 Joined: 31st January, 2003 From: Sydney Car(s): R32GTST R33GTST Stagea Trader Rating : 49 |
This is a picture of 2 shock pistons, the one on the left is a generic Japanese twin tube piston found in a 50 mm OD shock (Skyline front). The one on the right is a Bilstein piston from a Skyline front shock, also 50 mm OD.
The are two things to note from the picture; 1. The diameter, is is rather obvious that the twin tube piston is much smaller in diameter than the monotube piston. This means less oil is moved for the same stroke. Plus there is only room for 4 major valve orifices and 6 drilled holes. The importance of these two items was discused in a previous post. 2. The valve orifice sophistication, once again it is obvious that the Bilstein piston has 50% more outer valve orifices (6 compared to 4). In addition the 6 simple inner holes in the twin tube piston do not offer the variability in damping that the triangular shaped inner valve orifices do on the mono tube piston. As the valves open a larger portion of the triangular orifices are exposed, giving a great deal of tuneable variation in the damping. With the simple holes, the valve is either open or closed, there is therefore no potential for progression in the damping. This is why the sophisticated valve orifice design can give good control without excessive harshness. Simplistic valving, as a result, can never meet those twin objectives. In the next post I will discuss the valves themselves and how they contribute even more to the handling/ride comfort equation. -------------------- I don't own or work for a workshop and I don't know everything.
Wanted standard front and rear strut tops for R32/33/34 Skylines and Stageas plus 200SX S15 & S14 Group Buys on for Road & Track Kits (Whiteline, Eibach & Bilstein) for R32GTST, R32GTR, R32GTS4, R33GTST, R33GTR, R33GTS4, R34GTT, R34GTR and Stagea, plus Road and Track Kits for 200SX, S15 & S14 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
6 May 2006, 11:30 AM
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#11
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![]() DAVE-Teh-Mechanic ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 7,284 Joined: 1st May, 2005 Car(s): LAGMASTER Real Name: DAVE Trader Rating : 4 |
excelent. i wait paitantly
-------------------- GET A V8 WTB: R32GTR ROLLING SHELL. REGISTERABLE. :) |
7 May 2006, 10:14 AM
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#12
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![]() BAM ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 114 Joined: 1st September, 2005 Car(s): R33 GTS-t Real Name: Daniel Trader Rating : 0 |
"In addition the 6 simple inner holes in the twin tube piston do not offer the variability in damping that the triangular shaped inner valve orifices do on the twin tube piston" just one typing error SK,
that should read mono tube piston at the end yeah.......just thought it'd save confusion if I pointed it out. Wow, I was impressed by the size difference of those valves. Got to say the japanese shocks on mine are harsher than need be on fast movements. (ie. Road works) -------------------- Kids these days. . . . . . . . .
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9 May 2006, 06:00 PM
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#13
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![]() CA31 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 4,346 Joined: 1st July, 2003 From: Brisbane Car(s): 88 Cefiro & 08 Jetta Trader Rating : 1 |
Well I got my car back yesterday after it had been sydneykidised. And yeah. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON CHEAP JAPANESE (or expencive for that matter) SHOCKS. DO IT RIGHT ONCE.
Its like night and day. Its almost like they say on all those car shows about supercars 'awesome in the turns yet still driveable!'. Just pay the money, even if you dont get it thru SK (as much as you would have to be stupid not to). -------------------- Four Doors For Life!
Sedans for Style! '08 VW Jetta 2.0 TSI '88 Nissan Cefiro Factory manual turbo, FOR SALE, $14k, RB25 Gearbox, SK suspension, many other mods, PM me if you want it. Its gotta go! |